Comment Archives: stories: Life + Outdoors: Field Notes

Re: “Correlation ≠ Causation

Art Spelling -- So, you continue to advocate for an increased risk of dental decay in communities without providing any proof that drinking optimally fluoridated water is either ineffective or harmful and without explaining how, if your opinions are even remotely true, the overwhelming majority of science and health professionals (and the organizations they represent) continue to accept fluoridation as a safe and effective public health measure like other water treatment methods, vaccination, etc.

Are you actually claiming that everyone in the world who supports fluoridation and has science/health training and experience is a fool? Why are there no nationally or internationally recognized science or health organizations that support the anti-F paranoia?

There are, indeed, a number of factors that can increase or decrease the risk of dental decay, and fluoridation of drinking water is one of them. Only a fool would demand that an effective and safe method for lowering the risk of dental decay and related health issues should be abandoned. Do you enjoy the prospect of more children and adults sitting under a dentists drill?

You havent even explained exactly how fluoridation will "put chemicals in [your] body against [your] will" -- or how fluoridation will "encourage a society that forces chemicals on people". As noted in my previous comment, anyone with a severe paranoia against fluoride ions (or those who would like chlorine, disinfection byproducts or other chemicals removed from their water) are completely free to treat their own water or find other sources.

Your comment, "Fluoride is a neurotoxic poison" without adding a critical qualifier, "at excessive levels of exposure", is a common argument of fluoridation opponents, and it demonstrates a complete misunderstanding of the topic. Any substance you care to name -- even water -- is a toxin at excessive levels of exposure. Provide verifiable proof (specific citations and author quotes) that optimally fluoridated water is a neurotoxin. If there were such evidence the scientific consensus would change -- the consensus of safety and effectiveness has not changed in over 70 years.

The only way fluoridation opponents (FOs) can make their claims denying the safety and effectiveness of community water fluoridation is because they completely ignore the 70+ years of research that supports the practice. Here are just a few recent studies and reviews the FOs have deliberately missed.
~> The 2018 National Toxicity Program study, An Evaluation of Neurotoxicity Following Fluoride Exposure from Gestational Through Adult Ages in Long-Evans Hooded Rats:
"At these exposure levels [0, 10, or 20 ppm F], we observed no exposure-related differences in motor, sensory, or learning and memory performance on running wheel, open-field activity, light/dark place preference, elevated plus maze, pre-pulse startle inhibition, passive avoidance, hot-plate latency, Morris water maze acquisition, probe test, reversal learning, and Y-maze. Serum triiodothyronine (T3), thyroxine (T4), and thyroid stimulating hormone (TSH) levels were not altered as a function of 10 or 20 ppm F in the drinking water. No exposure-related pathology was observed in the heart, liver, kidney, testes, seminal vesicles, or epididymides"

~> Water Fluoridation and Dental Caries in U.S. Children and Adolescents, (Slade, et al., Journal of Dental Research, 6/14/2018)
"These findings confirm a substantial caries-preventive benefit of CWF for U.S. children and that the benefit is most pronounced in primary teeth."

~> The 2018 Water Fluoridation: Health Monitoring Report for England:
> "Five-year-olds in areas with water fluoridation schemes were much less likely to experience tooth decay, and less likely to experience more severe decay than in areas without schemes. "
> "The chances of having a tooth/teeth removed in hospital because of decay were also much lower in areas with water fluoridation schemes."
> "Children from both affluent and deprived areas benefitted from fluoridation, but children from relatively deprived areas benefitted the most."

~> The 2018 Food Safety Authority of Ireland Fluoride Report:
The study concludes that, based on scientific evidence, there is no safety concern for children and adults living in Ireland from exposure to fluoride through intake of foods and beverages.

~> The 2016 World Health Organization report: Fluoride and Oral Health:
> "More recently, systematic reviews summarizing these extensive databases have conrmed that water uoridation substantially reduces the prevalence and incidence of dental caries in primary and permanent teeth. Although percent caries reductions recorded have been slightly lower in 59 post-1990 studies compared with the pre-1990 studies, the reductions are still substantial."
> "The question of possible adverse general health effects caused by exposure to uorides taken in optimal concentrations throughout life has been the object of thorough medical investigations which have failed to show any impairment of general health."

~> The 2017 Swedish report, Effects of Fluoride in the Drinking Water:
"Taking all together, we investigate and confirm the long-established positive relationship between fluoride and dental health. Second, we find precisely estimated zero-effects on cognitive ability, non-cognitive ability and math test scores for fluoride levels in Swedish drinking water."

~> The 2016 Australias National Health and Medical Research Council Fluoridation Report:
"The evidence shows that water fluoridation helps to reduce tooth decay in children and adults. There is no reliable evidence that water fluoridation at current Australian levels causes health problems."

~> The 2014 Royal Society of New Zealand, Health effects of water fluoridation: A review of the scientific evidence:
"A large number of studies and systematic reviews have concluded that water fluoridation is an effective preventive measure against tooth decay that reaches all segments of the population, and is particularly beneficial to those most in need of improved oral health. Extensive analyses of potential adverse effects have not found evidence that the levels of fluoride used for community water fluoridation schemes contribute any increased risk to public health, though there is a narrow range between optimal dental health effectiveness and a risk of mild dental fluorosis."

Posted by Randy Johnson on 06/19/2018 at 6:06 PM

Re: “Correlation ≠ Causation

I grew up unfluoridated and live in Mckinleyville where the water isn't fluoridated. I haven't used fluoride toothpaste in over a decade. You want to put chemicals in my body against my will despite countless alternatives. I refuse to encourage a society that forces chemicals on people, especially in spite of countless alternatives. Barry Evans chooses to spend his time telling people to educate themselves on ingesting poisons rather than, say, educating people on countless alternatives, including very basic dental care. Fluoride is a neurotoxic poison and only a fool would encourage ingesting any amount of it.

Posted by Art Spelling on 06/19/2018 at 12:24 PM

Re: “Correlation ≠ Causation

Art Spelling -- What would your response be to anti-science activists (ASAs) who demanded that drinking water disinfection and other water treatment processes (pH adjustment, corrosion control, and coagulation/flocculation) should be halted because they "put chemicals in [their] body against [their] will". Disinfection adds chlorine gas (used as a chemical weapon) or sodium hypochlorite (bleach) to the water.

All water treatment processes involve adding chemicals which are toxic at high exposure levels to water to protect and improve the health of citizens who drink the water. Decades of scientific research and experience have proven that the benefits of all water treatment processes to citizens far outweigh any risks. If you or others have severe paranoia against fluorine, chlorine, disinfection byproducts or other chemicals in treated water you are free to take measures to remove them or find your water elsewhere.

It is remarkable that you would choose to fight for a cause that is not supported by science and, if successful, would increase the risk of dental decay and related health issues in communities where ASAs prevailed.

You addressed none of the comments I made about the reason the scientific consensus is critical for understanding complex scientific issues. If you completely dismiss and ignore the consensus of relevant experts in topics like fluoridation and vaccination, what process you use to determine whether a specific belief based on science is to be trusted? Do you simply accept only what you want to believe and ignore everything else?

If there were any legitimate scientific evidence that supported the ASAs claims, explain why these activists have been unable to change the scientific consensus. Scientists and health professionals require legitimate, verifiable evidence to change their conclusions, not the paranoid opinions of ASAs. If you have legitimate evidence you believe proves drinking optimally fluoridated water causes (or has caused) harm to anyone provide specific citations and author quotes in context.

If the anti-F ASAs had any legitimate supporting evidence, explain why over 100 national and international science and health organizations (and their thousands of members) continue to recognize the benefits of fluoridation, why there are no recognized science/health organizations that recognize the anti-F opinions as legitimate, and why fluoridation opponents must distort the evidence to try and scare and scam the public into believing their propaganda is true.
~> http://ilikemyteeth.org/fluoridation/why-fluoride/
~> http://ada.org/en/public-programs/advocating-for-the-public/fluoride-and-fluoridation/fluoridation-facts/fluoridation-facts-compendium

Similarly, all major science and health organizations recognize the benefits of vaccination and no such organizations support the anti-Vax paranoia.

Time to ask yourself, what's your motive for being one of the ASAs?

Posted by Randy Johnson on 06/18/2018 at 2:47 PM

Re: “Shots, Shots, Shots

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Posted by Robert Large on 06/17/2018 at 5:36 AM

Re: “Correlation ≠ Causation

It's all an idiom for debate, really. Who's pushing what and why? Randy Johnson labels certain people "anti-health" and "anti-science" despite the clearly mutual intenion of being healthy based on science. Fluoride is a neurotoxic poison. Almost half the children in this country show physical signs of over fluoridatuon. Randy Johnson and Barry Evans would put chemicals in my body against my will. I would never do such a thing, nor even suggest it. If a person wants to eat toothpaste sandwiches, that's their business, and their choice. Time to ask yourself, what's your motive?

0 likes, 1 dislike
Posted by Art Spelling on 06/16/2018 at 3:32 PM

Re: “Correlation ≠ Causation

This article describes a critically important concept (Correlation noes not necessarily = Causation) which helps explain why anti-science activists (fluoridation and vaccination opponents, UFO and chemtrail believers, global warming deniers, et cetera ad nauseum) are often able to scam well-meaning citizens, create apparent scientific controversy where there is none and sway public opinion to disbelieve and reject legitimate scientific conclusions.

The only solution to this dilemma is to trust the established scientific consensus of relevant experts on specific issues -- or become a qualified expert yourself.

Cause and effect is one of the most commonly misunderstood concepts in science and is often misused by lawyers, the media, politicians, [activists] and even scientists themselves, in an attempt to add legitimacy to research. Unfortunately, most of the general public are not scientists and cannot be expected to filter every single news item that they read for quality or delve into which group funded research. Even respected and trusted newspapers, journals and internet resources can fall into the causality trap, so marketing groups can influence perceptions. (Martyn Shuttleworth)
https://explorable.com/cause-and-effect

Although the goal of science is to use controlled observations and experiments to determine as clearly and accurately as possible specific cause and effect relationships (causality) in nature, as Barry explained, it is often extremely difficult to distinguish the actual causes for a specific effect/phenomena from events which may only be related in time (correlated) to the outcome of interest.

Another goal of nearly all scientists is to use the knowledge of how nature works to adjust nature in various ways (in healthcare, engineering, agriculture, etc.) to improve the condition of mankind.

Unfortunately, any complex scientific/health issue with decades of research will have "mixed" results when scientists try to establish causality. The difficulty of establishing an exact cause in many instances, in addition to the potential of poor quality study design/execution/analysis, failing to identify other issues which might impact an experiment/observation (confounding factors), and personal biases can all influence the published outcomes.

Also, for any complex proposed cause and effect relationship (for example - potential causes of, or reduction in, tooth decay or cases of flu or autism), there are perhaps dozens of possible interrelated causes and numerous other phenomena which may only be correlated with the effect of interest.
~> Search on, correlation does not imply causation for example, to see how it can be proven that autism can be caused by eating organic food.

All these factors which can influence research quality and conclusions are precisely why the scientific consensus of experts who are qualified to understand and evaluate all of the available evidence is critical. Establishing a consensus separates the wheat from the chaff. Not all scientific studies are good quality, but by definition, any accurately performed study can be replicated by any other researchers(s). Over time the experiments/observations which are reliable and the conclusions that are accurate and trustworthy will become more obvious and validated by others. The most accurate, verifiable interpretation of cause and effect relationships will become the consensus.

Scientific understanding is constantly evolving the constant possibility of change in scientific consensus based on new, legitimate, verifiable scientific research is one of the most unique and important characteristics of science. Without a process that allows for a change in consensus, science would be an unchanging, authoritarian belief system, and all of the characteristics of modern society which are based on an evolving understanding of the natural world would not exist.

There will always be a relatively few outlier scientists who do not accept the scientific consensus and who must carefully pick and choose the "evidence" they accept. There will also always be non-scientists who have passionate beliefs and choose to believe the unsupported opinions of outliers over the interpretation of the actual evidence by the overwhelming majority of experts.

These anti-science activists (ASAs) are masters at establishing possible correlations which they proudly claim are proof of causes. ASAs who do not accept the scientific consensus also sift through the studies and pull out the chaff which they promote as legitimate, compelling research. The use of conclusions from mainstream studies and reviews distorted and taken out of context are a tactic also used frequently by ASAs.

The fact is that any scientific consensus will change if sufficient, legitimate, reproducible evidence is presented. The outlier ASAs have been trying to come up with legitimate evidence for decades without success that fluoridation and vaccination are harmful or ineffective that UFOs and chemtrails exist and the climate is stable. Consequently, the consensus has not changed and virtually all national and international health and/or science organizations and their members continue to recognize the benefits of both fluoridation and vaccination, believe climate change is a critical danger for most scientists and understand UFOs and chemtrails to be imaginary constructs.

Fear is often a far more effective motivator of beliefs than a considered evaluation of evidence particularly when the details are complex and the risks and benefits of peoples health is at stake.

Anti-health ASAs exploit the complexity of science and the power of fear to drive their anti-science, fear-mongering campaigns. ASAs will try and convince concerned citizens (most of whom have no relevant training or experience in evaluating complex scientific studies), that beneficial public health measures (vaccination and fluoridation) are actually evil incarnate. A primary argument used is that representatives of all supporting science/health organizations are either too stupid or incompetent to understand and recognize what the ASAs claim are obvious dangers of vaccination/fluoridation or all these professionals actually understand the issue but simply dont care about the alleged havoc these health measures are causing to the health of their families and fellow citizens. If those claims are even remotely true, everyone would have a lot more than these public health programs to worry about. In fact, virtually all national and international science and health organizations recognize vaccination and fluoridation as safe and effective public health measures and none recognize the opinions of ASAs

All alleged evidence presented by ASAs, used in their attempts to influence public opinions, has been carefully evaluated and dismissed by mainstream scientific & health communities. When ASAs present this evidence to the public it will have one or more of the following characteristics: 1) The study will have nothing to do with the subject; 2) Actual conclusions of studies have been deliberately distorted/misused/misstated to fit ASAs; 3) Conclusions will only be suggestion of a possible correlation without proper adjustment for other potential causes, and they are proof of nothing; 4) The study will be unrepeatable; 5) the study will be demonstrably flawed &/or 6) The claim will be a complete fabrication.

Bottom line: What makes more sense when trying to understand complex scientific subjects with decades of scientific evidence and thousands of studies?
1) Believe the scientific consensus the conclusions of the majority of relevant health experts and/or scientists.
2) Believe claims from vocal groups of ASAs who represent a small fraction of a percent of health and science professionals and employ unsupportable, often fear-laced propaganda to scare the caring citizens into opposing safe and effective public health measures, dismissing a potentially catastrophic climate change or accepting other anti-science fabrications as valid.

Search on safety and effectiveness of vaccination
~> https://www.parents.com/health/vaccines/controversy/vaccines-the-reality-behind-the-debate/
~> https://www.healthychildren.org/English/safety-prevention/immunizations/Pages/Vaccine-Studies-Examine-the-Evidence.aspx

Search on safety and effectiveness of fluoridation
~> http://who.int/oral_health/publications/2016_fluoride_oral_health.pdf
~> https://openparachute.wordpress.com/fluoridation/

Search on climate change deniers
~> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_change_denial
~> https://www.skepticalscience.com/argument.php

1 like, 1 dislike
Posted by Randy Johnson on 06/14/2018 at 10:49 PM

Re: “Colorado Brown Stain and Fluoridation

I appreciate your article Barry.

It is unfortunate that many individuals do not invest the time and effort to thoroughly, critically and accurately evaluate a significant quantity of available scientific evidence on community water fluoridation. Below are five recent studies/reviews in addition to the 2018 National Toxicology Program study referenced by Dr. Johnson that have addressed the safety and effectiveness of fluoridation. These references are completely ignored by fluoridation opponents -- as is all research that cant be adjusted to fit within their pre-ordained conclusions that fluoridation is ineffective and harmful.

This evidence, and over 70 years of similar data, is the reason over 100 national and international science and health organizations (and their thousands of members) continue to recognize the benefits of fluoridation, why there are no recognized science/health organizations that recognize the anti-F opinions as legitimate, and why fluoridation opponents must distort the evidence to try and scare and scam the public into believing their propaganda is true.
~> http://ilikemyteeth.org/fluoridation/why-fluoride/
~> http://ada.org/en/public-programs/advocating-for-the-public/fluoride-and-fluoridation/fluoridation-facts/fluoridation-facts-compendium

References:
The 2018 Water Fluoridation: Health Monitoring Report for England:
> Five-year-olds in areas with water fluoridation schemes were much less likely to experience tooth decay, and less likely to experience more severe decay than in areas without schemes.
> The chances of having a tooth/teeth removed in hospital because of decay were also much lower in areas with water fluoridation schemes.
> Children from both affluent and deprived areas benefitted from fluoridation, but children from relatively deprived areas benefitted the most.
> Dental fluorosis, at a level that may effect the appearance of teeth, was observed in 10% of children/young people examined in 2 fluoridated cities2. However, there was no difference between children and young people surveyed in fluoridated and nonfluoridated cities when asked about their opinion on the appearance of their teeth, taking into account concerns which have resulted from any cause (eg poor alignment, decay, trauma or fluorosis).
~> https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/water-fluoridation-health-monitoring-report-for-england-2018

The 2018 Food Safety Authority of Ireland Fluoride Report:
The study concludes that, based on scientific evidence, there is no safety concern for children and adults living in Ireland from exposure to fluoride through intake of foods and beverages.
~> https://www.fsai.ie/news_centre/tds_fluoride_30042018.html
~> www.fsai.ie/publications/fluoride_study_2014-2016

The 2016 World Health Organization report,: Fluoride and Oral Health:
> Studies from many different countries over the past 60 years are remarkably consistent in demonstrating substantial reductions in caries prevalence as a result of water uoridation. One hundred and thirteen studies into the effectiveness of articial water uoridation in 23 countries conducted before 1990, recorded a modal percent caries reduction of 40 to 50% in primary teeth and 50 to 60% in permanent.
> More recently, systematic reviews summarizing these extensive databases have conrmed that water uoridation substantially reduces the prevalence and incidence of dental caries in primary and permanent teeth. Although percent caries reductions recorded have been slightly lower in 59 post-1990 studies compared with the pre-1990 studies, the reductions are still substantial.
> The question of possible adverse general health effects caused by exposure to uorides taken in optimal concentrations throughout life has been the object of thorough medical investigations which have failed to show any impairment of general health.
~> http://who.int/oral_health/publications/2016_fluoride_oral_health.pdf

The 2016 Australias National Health and Medical Research Council Fluoridation Report:
The evidence shows that water fluoridation helps to reduce tooth decay in children and adults. There is no reliable evidence that water fluoridation at current Australian levels causes health problems.
~> https://www.nhmrc.gov.au/guidelines-publications/eh43-0

The 2017 Swedish report, Effects of Fluoride in the Drinking Water:
Fluoridation of the drinking water is a public policy whose aim is to improve dental health. Although the evidence is clear that fluoride is good for dental health, concerns have been raised regarding potential negative effects on cognitive development. We study the effects of fluoride exposure through the drinking water throughout life on cognitive and non-cognitive ability, math test scores and labor market outcomes in a large-scale setting. Taking all together, we investigate and confirm the long-established positive relationship between fluoride and dental health. Second, we find precisely estimated zero-effects on cognitive ability, non-cognitive ability and math test scores for fluoride levels in Swedish drinking water. Third, we find that fluoride improves later labor market outcomes, which indicates that good dental health is a positive factor on the labor market.
~> https://www.ifau.se/globalassets/pdf/se/2017/wp2017-20-the-effects-of-fluoride-in-the-drinking-water.pdf

1 like, 0 dislikes
Posted by Randy Johnson on 06/10/2018 at 1:56 PM

Re: “Shots, Shots, Shots

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Re: “Shots, Shots, Shots

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Re: “Shots, Shots, Shots

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Re: “Colorado Brown Stain and Fluoridation

.....as are aspirin, caffeine, and aspartame. Gonna give up that neurotoxic cup of coffee in the morning, Art?

Steven D. Slott, DDS

1 like, 0 dislikes
Posted by Steven Slott on 06/08/2018 at 10:51 AM

Re: “Colorado Brown Stain and Fluoridation

Alcohol being a neurotoxin, I take it your a teetotaller, Art?

2 likes, 0 dislikes
Posted by barryevans on 06/08/2018 at 10:40 AM

Re: “Colorado Brown Stain and Fluoridation

National Toxicology Program:
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs12640-018-9870-x

FAN was thrilled that it was being done, saying that it would spell the end of water fluoridation. Since its publication, the CWF opposition has been as quiet as a church mouse.

Results: no neurotoxic effects or any effects on 9 areas that were being evaluated. Nada.

Science: credibly conducted, evidence-based, peer-reviewed, and published in credibly recognized scientific journals. The facts are the facts, for better or worse.

Johnny Johnson, Jr, DMD, MS
President, American Fluoridation Society

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Re: “Shots, Shots, Shots

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Re: “Shots, Shots, Shots

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Re: “Shots, Shots, Shots

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Posted by Franca Maven on 06/05/2018 at 11:28 PM

Re: “Colorado Brown Stain and Fluoridation

Fluoride is a neurotoxin and you're a fool to promote ingesting any amount of it.

3 likes, 2 dislikes
Posted by Art Spelling on 06/04/2018 at 5:16 PM

Re: “Colorado Brown Stain and Fluoridation

Art....sigh......

Hardy Limeback is one of the most well-known, outspoken fluoridation opponents anywhere. Thats the point. When a paper he co-authored concludes, as conclusively as will any credible scientific paper conclude, that there is no concern with bone fracture associated with community fluoridated water, then you can be be assured that there has been no spin applied. Limeback would undoubtedly find your comment comical that he has applied spin favorable to fluoridation.

Steven D. Slott, DDS

2 likes, 1 dislike
Posted by Steven Slott on 06/04/2018 at 1:11 PM

Re: “Colorado Brown Stain and Fluoridation

From your own...
"...Many decades of epidemiological studies have shown minimal evidence of any effects of fluoride administration on bone, and it is therefore very unlikely that municipally fluoridated water affects adults with healthy bone. In this study, no effects of fluoride on mineralization (by BSE) and no substantive negative effects of fluoride administration on bone mechanical properties were observed....

Translates to: Fluoride DOES have a very negative effect. The author does his best to spin the lingo, but "minimal evidence" and "no substantive negative effects" glosses over the very evidence and negative effects, and that's at "proper" levels in a limited study that was pursuant to positive review. You blathering boobs are like volunteer lobbyists for cigarette companies over their safe and non addictive products.

1 like, 2 dislikes
Posted by Art Spelling on 06/04/2018 at 12:56 PM

Re: “Colorado Brown Stain and Fluoridation

Fluoride is a neurotoxin and you're foolish for promoting it be added to drinking water. Of all the issues you could take time out of your day to beat your chests about...

1 like, 2 dislikes
Posted by Art Spelling on 06/04/2018 at 12:46 PM

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